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Sherlock certainly has things that could be superficially viewed as Asperger's, but what strikes me about the portrayal (and about the character in general, from Doyle onwards) is that -- ok, so I think, when most people think about the Sherlock portrayal as one of Asperger's, they are thinking of what
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Anyway, "So Odd a Mixture" has a handy-dandy list of 9 areas of difficulty that you tend to see, to one degree or another, in people on the autism spectrum: theory of mind (understanding that others think differently from oneself, understanding motives of others, etc), central coherence (understanding what details are important and how they impact the whole), executive function (complex planning), cognitive shifting (ability to shift focus), language processing, dyspraxia (motor impairments), awareness of the unwritten rules of conversation, interpretaton of non-verbal cues from facial expression and gestures, and sensory sensitivities.
Of those, I can only really see Sherlock (in any incarnation, not just this one) of having issues with cognitive shifting (he tends to focus intently and may not pay attention to peripheral information, though "The Great Game" in BBC Sherlock might argue against difficulty in this area for that particular version of Sherlock Holmes) and sensory sensitivities (it's certainly one plausible explanation for the character's ongoing physical disdain for women, though of course homosexuality or asexuality are alternate explanations).
Of the others -- if he had serious difficulties in any of them, he couldn't do what he does. What he does displays a deep, well-managed, coherent understanding of human motivations and of how details impact the whole.
He's bad with certain emotions (not understanding how someone could still be upset about a death that occurred years ago), but he does understand emotions in general. Even if he doesn't experience certain emotions himself, which he might not, he is clearly aware that other people have them and what effects different emotions might be expected to have upon those people's behavior.
Mostly, how he reads to me is as a bright, callous individual who really doesn't care much about other people. He does not read to me as a sociopath, though sociopathy I'm more willing to buy for the length of a story than I am an autism spectrum disorder.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-09-24 10:48 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-09-24 11:15 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-09-24 11:15 pm (UTC)Inasmuch as I see him having mental illness or not being neurotypical, I'd always taken him to have bipolar disorder. His cyclical phases of mania and depression, and the self-medication are fairly -- well, he's a fictional character and I'm not a psychologist, but still, they're fairly classic symptoms and I'd always imagined surely Doyle had known people with the disorder to be able to portray Holmes so.
I'd have to say, I'd be more willing to follow sociopathy (or psychopathy) than a story that posits an autism spectrum disorder, unless it were an exploration of who Sherlock Holmes might be if he genuinely were somewhere on the autism spectrum.
*Disclaimer: I'm not watching/haven't watched the recent BBC Holmes so I've no idea exactly what they've been doing on that show. But if they'd drastically re-imagined Holmes, I'd have thought it would have come up quite a bit.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-09-24 11:32 pm (UTC)(BBC Sherlock canonically claims to be a sociopath, though my personal read on that is that he internet/armchair diagnosed himself as a teenager and really latched onto it as an identity.)
So much of what Sherlock Holmes does and is relies on his deep reads of emotions and motivations, on being able to centrally process that information, derive and execute complex plans, and so on that...I have no idea who he'd be if he was on the autism spectrum, I guess. Just as I have friends who I have no idea who they'd be if they weren't on the autism spectrum. Bipolar I'd certainly buy, for Doyle's original Holmes and for Jeremy Brett's, as well. Not sure about the BBC one, yet, but there hasn't been enough of him to really know at this point.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-09-25 01:29 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-09-25 02:00 am (UTC)But I think there are plenty of convincing arguments against sociopathy in the three episodes we have -- not least because the classically sociopathic behaviors he exhibits are not done for classically sociopathic reasons. (Ability to cry at will is apparently classically sociopathic, but doing it in order to gain something other than personal sympathy or pity is not, for example. Game-playing with humans as the pieces is sociopathic, but the willingness to play someone else's game is not. Moriarty, now, I think BBC's Moriarty is a sociopath in truth.)
(no subject)
Date: 2010-09-27 01:21 pm (UTC)Also, he shows emotion when he is not looked at, and this is something you will never see a sociopath doing. He is also defensive, and again no sociopath would behave so (with John in the first episode, he was on defence the whole time). I think he wish to be a sociopath, but in truth isn't :)
I agree with Moriarty as a true sociopath, and he understands that Sherlock isn't one ("We both knows it isn't true")
T.T.
(no subject)
Date: 2011-11-09 12:32 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-07-09 03:08 pm (UTC)I believe he *wants* to be a sociopath - but his symptoms are *the* cliché for highly intelligent/gifted people, only a bit extreme.
Shall I elaborate? (I am in "treatment" for being gifted and the issues that ensue, and I'm fifteen, but I know a bit about that stuff by now)
First of all: Gifted people, meaning people with an IQ of more then 130, perceive the world differently.
Second: We experience the world, and emotions and human interactions differently.
Third: We think differently.
That all adds up to a few issues.
I'll take myself for an example.
While I do have friends, I always, really always, have to curb myself down. I have questions after questions about things others would find gross, but I restrain myself. I have funny urges about touching other people, but I restrain myself. (My psychologist says I'm lonely, so I want to hug my friends, but I know that's not something the persona I created for me would do, so I squash the urge, to hold on to the picture of normalcy)
I really have a lot of acquaintances, and while I'm really good at making friends, I often have problem deepening the relationship. I sometimes have problems understanding social norms, and, as my psychologist says, it's always the gifted who have to accommodate, and I think Sherlock simply does not do this.
He uses his arrogance and coldness as a wall to protect himself - he probably was a high-achiever in school, and we all know how other children react to that, don't we? (Even though I have learned - what needs, must - to act like a "normal" person in the eyes of society, I am often called names for being good at school)
But if he doesn't let anyone near enough to care about them, they can't hurt him. It's a typical reaction, really.
He knows there's something "wrong" with him, always has been, and this affects a child, and an adult.
He's most likely insecure, and it's really hard to imagine thinking in a different way from how we do - but it's a fact, none the less.
In my opinion, Sherlock simply does not have those restraints. He doesn't care about what other people think, he is who he really is.
My psychologist told me to stop being so tame and nice all the time. It's burning me out, she said, and nothing better than using only half your brain power (the other is always under stress and trying to note anything that would betray your picture of being "Normal") is the best way to stunt your brain.
Please note that I used tie " " around "normal" deliberately, I simply know of no other way to indicate what I mean. It's just that we're different, so the ones who're not are normal, for lack of a better word. And please also take in consideration that I am fifteen, German and not a psychological student. I have merely repeated what my psychologist told me.
(no subject)
Date: 2012-07-09 05:35 pm (UTC)So yes, I agree that Sherlock doesn't accommodate. I think most gifted people choose in which areas they will and won't accommodate; it is quite rare, in my experience, that they choose "none" (which seems to be what Sherlock has chosen).
(no subject)
Date: 2010-09-27 01:17 pm (UTC)I see more Sherlock as having a disorder of the autistic spectrum (which is not only Asparger, because you can have some autistic traits even withouth the "entire" disorder) because sociopaths don't have emotions. Jim is a definitive sociopath in Sherlock, and he doesn't have any emotion save "bored" and "excited". Sociopaths are also completely amoral (obviously). Holmes, in any incarnation (and I would be very sad if they don't put it in Sherlock, really) has strong moral principles, and shows feeling (towards Watson mostly, but also occasionally clients, Lestrade, Mycroft, Mrs Hudson and others).
Even in Sherlock he often show emotion like sadness (the scene in which Sebastian says everybody in Uni hated him is the first that come into my mind).
The "signs" of Asparger you cite are to be treated with extreme care.
Sherloc, the BBC one, also shows sign of sensory overload (the bank).
Still, I don't see Sherlock Holmes as an Aspier or Autistic neither. He is far too manipulative to fit the definition. Some Aspies can read people very well. Some have an uncanny ability to read non-verbal clues also. Yet, an Autistic person doesn't manipulate other people, even when she/he "could".
In my opinion, Sherlock Holmes is not neurotipical, and might have some austic traits (might). But I also think his "peculiarities" are things he carefully cultivate to keep people at bay, as well. Our world is less forgiving of "eccentricities" than Victorian Society was :( we have this nasty habit to NEED to give a word or a label to person, often in their face (no victorian gentleman would tell to somebody face "you are a freak". They might have called him arrogant behind his back, but that was it).
:)
(no subject)
Date: 2010-09-27 01:21 pm (UTC)T.T.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-09-27 06:26 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-09-28 04:42 am (UTC)Yes, I can see several downsides, and it's not like I wish I was neurotypical. I just wish I had access to the kind of social framework that neurotypicals typically have, that they can so easily build because "everyone" is just like them, in all the "important" ways at least. And my, that wandered off from where I thought I was going with it . . .
~
(no subject)
Date: 2010-09-28 11:51 am (UTC)I can see the desire to have access to that framework; it makes things easier in ways I know about and I'm sure plenty I don't (since most of the areas where i know it makes things easier are areas where my own personality needs...scaffolding.)
(no subject)
Date: 2010-09-27 06:54 pm (UTC)Pro writer Graham Robb argues IMO convincingly that both Holmes and Poe's Dupin are canonically but subtextually homosexual, and that their powers of observation and detection are based on gaydar.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-09-27 08:13 pm (UTC)*barges in via Delicious linkage and dumps a truckload of tl;dr*
Date: 2010-10-01 05:38 pm (UTC)I love reading about an autistic spectrum Sherlock or an asexual!Sherlock, because I find them personally empowering. I suppose others might love a predominantly bipolar or antisocial or choose-your-disorder-du-jour Sherlock for the same reason. Or just because it feels right. Your interpretation is equally valid and I can totally see where you're coming from with it - it's just not one that personally appeals to me at all.
That said, a textbook or even the official diagnostic criteria won't tell you much about autistic or Aspergic people and how they function in day to day life. Spectrum is the preferred term for a reason. And I don't read the 'OMG Sherlock totes has Aspergers!' posts in communities for the same reasons that
And because tl;dr is the way I roll, I jotted down some points that I find interesting re: the autistic spectrum discussion. Feel free to ignore - just seems like I had a lot of this stuff on my brain, waiting to be released into the wild. :3
Re: *barges in via Delicious linkage and dumps a truckload of tl;dr*
Date: 2010-10-02 02:05 am (UTC)The one that really strikes me is that you hear Sherlock's tone as fairly monotonous; to me he doesn't sound monotonous at all, nor particularly unusually inflected. I do wonder what British folks hear when they hear him; to my ear he sounds like they intend the character to have a slightly posh background (but I'm American and am therefore stabbing in the dark re: British class/regional distinctions of accent).
(no subject)
Date: 2011-02-13 05:58 am (UTC)It's wonderful to use characters to explicate a little-known condition, but I only enjoy it if it's a reasonably plausible interpretation of the character. A version of Sherlock with autistic spectrum disorder would have a hard time convincing me unless it were presented as an AU, a "what if". On the other hand, ACD canon Holmes is the poster boy for asexuality, and BBC's Sherlock is probably intended to be asexual too, although that was clearer in the unaired pilot than in the actual first episode. It's at least a plausible interpretation of the character.
He doesn't strike me as a sociopath, either. I think he self-diagnosed and embraced the identity to keep people out of his way. He's arrogant and thinks a lot of himself; as the TV producer in the movie Broadcast News said when accused of enjoying being smarter than everyone else, it sucks to be the smartest person in a room. (That is probably not a direct quote.) Moriarty strikes me more as a psychopath than a sociopath.
Holmes (and possibly Sherlock) reads more as bipolar than anything else. Of course, we'll never really see it on the show because Sherlock lounging around doing nothing doesn't make for compelling TV, but the alternation between work and being bored seems to fit that as well or better than sociopathy. I can't really speak to NPD other than to say he seems more manic than delusional, and he admits that he sometimes errs -- in the case of his deductions about John's sister, he didn't expect to be 100% correct.
Sherlock definitely is meant to have a posh background, and Benedict Cumberbatch has an upper-class accent. I read his speech pattern as him attempting to keep whatever is spilling out of his brain under control and in some semblance of order, not as a monotone or flat voice.
It's a shame you got flamed for expressing an opinion in a reasoned and intelligent manner.
P.S. - I'm an Anglophile, not a Brit.
(no subject)
Date: 2011-02-27 12:36 am (UTC)I think talking about Asperger's in general terms full stop is very difficult because it's so varied, particularly between the genders but even between individuals. You can very easily fill a room with people with AS and they'll all have very different traits. I think it presents differently as a result of upbringing, personality, IQ and when the person was diagnosed.
That being said, I actually discovered I have AS relatively late in life as a result of watching the BBC Sherlock show. Life's odd like that. Basically I saw a lot of logic in what Sherlock did, although I also saw how inappropriate a lot of his behaviour was. I definitely see some very AS qualities in him. In particular, his demand that people be quiet while he's trying to work through a problem (not something I personally do) and his inability to fit together emotions with situations such as his lack of sensitivity and his rather utilitarian "cost-benefit" style approach to matters that perhaps require a more delicate touch (the Great Game, for example).
Because of the near infinite variations of AS it seems possible for Sherlock to have AS. It's quite possible, for example, that he could be fairly decent with relationships. I think some people with AS don't find interpreting interactions as difficult but rather struggle with how to respond to them, for example. It's rather like being a foreign tourist: you can tell from the inflection that another person is angry or happy but you don't know how best to respond. This can lead to, as Sherlock seems to do, turning cold instead, rather than "risking" getting it wrong.
That being said, because the characteristics of AS are so varied they can very well apply to any number of other conditions or certain personality types. I think it's an interesting way of considering his character but it can threaten to take over in stories at the expense of the plot and characterisation.
:D So... yeah, just my thoughts on it all.
(no subject)
Date: 2011-07-21 09:37 pm (UTC)Yeah, I don't really get the Asperger's vibe from him, either, and I wondered about BC's understanding of Autistic Spectrum Disorders when I heard him say that. Maybe I am basing my ideas on the fact that he is nothing like JP, really, and I know that JP is hardly the one flavor of Aspergers or ASD out there, but just-- no. I just don't see him as autistic. I could see him as gay, a control freak, possibly a sociopath to some degree, completely out of touch with what 'mundane' people feel, someone who wraps his extremely high IQ around him like a shroud or armor from an early age to deal with bullies or irritated, abngry people when he blurted out something he shouldn't, someone who stepped in it quite a lot and when he hurt people's feelings, rather than admit that he messed up or deal with it said, "Get over it, it's true!" but I don't see him as a sociopath. I could even see him as possibly, just maybe, a little bit ADD, but not even that, really. Someone who gets bored extremely easily, that couldn't have been made more obvious unless the show had been made by an American Network, by the people at Fox who make Bones, even, but I don't see Aspie.
He has no problem reading facial expression and accurately understanding tone of voice (his discussion with John in the Great Game, when he asked if he'd disappointed John springs to mind, he could do it, he just hadn't bothered till he couldn't ignore it anymore, and his asking, "Not good?" in Study in Pink), he can express himself just fine, with both his command of the language as well as tone of voice, pitch, nonverbal cues/body language, and he takes delight in pissing off certain people, which isn't something I've known a lot of autistic/Aspie people to do.
But preaching to the choir here, I know.
(no subject)
Date: 2011-07-21 10:39 pm (UTC)i meant to say I don't see him as the average person's idea of a sociopath, because he does have some understanding of other people's emotions, he just frequently doesn't really give a damn. I think he actually *tries* to be a sociopath because its easier for him for him to pretend like other people's feelings don't matter. I think he has sociopathic tendencies, and he leans on them and cultivates them a lot, rather than it being something he was born with. After all, it's easier to tell yourself and others you don't care that your classmates don't like you than it is to figure out why they don't like you and try to do something about it, and really, it's arguable how far it's healthy for one to go in order to 'fit in' and be well liked by your classmates.
demystify of gifted, asperger and shaman
Date: 2011-08-28 05:54 pm (UTC)Source : http://leblogdelazebrette.blogspirit.com/tag/surdoués
(no subject)
Date: 2012-01-22 08:55 pm (UTC)But in my opinion he does have Autism, and by 'he' I mean the BBC's Sherlock. I have Asperger Syndrome and even before I had any idea that I had AS I could relate to him A LOT, I never related to anyone the way I related to him.
The best 'evidence' is that the things he does, by that I mean when 'normal' people consider those things rude, inappropriate etc., are thing most people just don't understand, they have no idea why he acts that way, they think he does that because he's just an asshole. But I, and other autistic people, do understand why he does the things he does. I tend to act like him a lot. And I totally understand why someone who doesn't have Autism could think he's a Sociopath, I used to think I was one myself before I found out about AS, but he obviously does care, but he shows it in ways non-autistic people don't understand, that's why we're almost always misunderstood. The reason you give why he's not are thing we learn along the way, the things that don't come natural to me are thing I learned, and I can see that in Sherlock as well.
The most obvious thing though are his breakdowns, when his brain just overloads, it's something that I happens to me a lot and I've seen it happen to Sherlock a number of times. You just shut out everything else, which might come over as ignoring and being rude, but it's not on purpose, we only later realise what we have done.
There's a lot of things why one might suggest that he's autistic, but you can only see them when you understand the way autistic people think. I'm not saying that he actually he is, but it is highly probable. But on the other hand, he is definitely not a sociopath, he shows empathy but not in the ways you'd expect.
I agree
Date: 2013-10-31 02:25 am (UTC)He does though
Date: 2013-10-31 02:24 am (UTC)