Fan creators are allowed to have boundaries.

[laurajv]

 (Originally posted to my Tumblr.)

The discussion about Choose Not To Warn has me thinking about a lot of aspects of CNtW. 

I want to talk about....a lot of those aspects, but right now, this instant, I want to talk about boundaries. 

In the context of fandom, we understand that fanwork creators are permitted to have boundaries. Some creators do not want to be exposed to criticism of their work (and so readers who want to engage in that criticism will have crit-friendly spaces, or will refrain from tagging the author in discussions). Some do not want their work to be remixed -- at all, or without explicit permission -- so people who want to do that should ask; others issue blanket permissions. Creators draw boundaries about putting their work on Goodreads; they place it on certain websites or do not; they lock it to Archive readers or leave it public; they orphan the work; they take it down from places they no longer want it.

We understand all these boundaries and generally acknowledge that creators are allowed to have them and that disrespecting them is a jerk move.

And yet, when a creator draws the very particular boundary of “Creator Chose Not To Use Archive Warnings”, this is suddenly “rude” and “vaguewarning” and “asshole behavior”? 

No. 

This is not different from any other boundary a creator places on their work.

Fan creators are human beings who are allowed to have boundaries on their work. You might think their boundaries are dumb, but you aren’t allowed to violate them. There’s a fan creator I ran into back in the 1990s who had, I thought, incredibly annoying and dumb boundaries. You had to email her with proof of age to get a password to her stories on her own personal website. You were not allowed to link to her work, or pass on the links, or share the password, or anything. It’s been 20+ years and I still think this was a stupid as fuck boundary. I still respected it: I never read her work from her website, only when she posted it to mailing lists. I never asked anyone to link me to it or share the password with me. She was allowed to have these boundaries, even though I thought they were dumb and made my eyes roll right out of my head. I had no right to violate her boundaries, and I had no right to access to her work.

When I put work on the Archive, I need to be comfortable doing so. Anything other than “Creator Chose Not To Use Archive Warnings” is uncomfortable and upsetting for me, and I won’t do it. I never liked archiving anywhere that required warnings, although I did it because I believed that the existence of comprehensive archives was more important than my personal comfort. I shouldn’t’ve had to do it then, and I’m relieved I no longer have to do it. It made sharing my work with others more difficult and less joyful. 

Readers are allowed to have a boundary of not reading work without warnings. What they do not get to do is alter my boundaries because they don’t like that they can’t read my work with my boundaries in place. 

 *  *  * 
edit: a followup post: Compromise is not always workable.
edit: another followup: Sometimes people make art for an audience that isn't you.

Comments

[arduinna]

I hadn't realized people were having this conversation again. I think CNTW is one of the greatest things fandom ever invented; it's a boundary that works for everyone, even if it's not perfect for anyone (and even if people don't like that they have to decide if they're willing to risk something - it's still their choice, no one's dictating anything). Compromise! Yay!

[laurajv]

it's wild out there on the tumblrs the past few days, I tell you what! if you read my last day or so of posts there is some Context.

edit: https://jacquez45.tumblr.com/tagged/fandom-meta should get you most of the context!

[musesfool]

Wow, wow, I didn't realize there were so many people who still don't understand that Choose Not to Warn IS THE WARNING.* I don't read stories with that tag unless they've been vetted! It's not that hard!

I have said this for years and years but for an activity based so much on reading and interpreting text, fandom sure is terrible at it.

*I still feel like so much anti nonsense is ship-based rather than anything more important, so I also think these folks are being willfully ignorant, but I am also very tired and cynical.

[laurajv]

I think, for some people, what they SAY is that it's "too vague" or "rude" and what they mean is "I know there are stories I would like in that tag so I want people to stop using it so I don't have to do any work".

I mean, I don't think people (like me) who LIVE in that tag are better or worse than anyone else; we just have, you know, a different set of boundaries.

[arduinna]

Wow, thanks for the link. I've just caught up. We really do just keep having the same conversations over and over and over, oy.

[arduinna]

Yeah, agreed, and that's what it's always been - FOMO. Which... is not actually anyone else's responsibility to make sure you never feel.

[laurajv]

I mean, at this point I'm putting some things out there to have a relatively-recent Response To That Nonsense, but I'm so sick of it!

[ratcreature]

I had no idea this was still an issue.

I actually choose that as default for my drawble collection posts simply for the convenience of not having to edit the warnings as I add more stuff, or risk the warnings changing on people as I add content.

[laurajv]

There are SO MANY reasons to do it, and being lazy or rude (two accusations I've seen in the past day) are NOT among them! jeeeeeezy kreezy, people!

[ratcreature]

Well, I guess you could argue that my reason is partly laziness, but I actually do add new tags for new characters and content and such with those works, I just don't want having to change the old tags, and particularly I don't want to risk old links or shares that include tags become misleading, which actually seems more rude to me.

If something starts out with "no archive warnings apply", which is honestly most of my stuff, but then I add the odd drawble that does have a tentacle rape or character death or such and have to change it, then someone might follow an old share and not scrutinize the current tags. So anything that I still add to gets that blanket caution.

[laurajv]

that seems like good sense (that happens to also be easier) more than laziness, tbh. :D

[ratcreature]

Also there is a cost to this "opt out" for the creators too, in that they possibly loose potential audience, so FOMO risk actually falls kind of on both alike.

[princessofgeeks]

Thank you. Great to see you.

[laurajv]

heya!

[silverusagi]

I don't know why people have such a hard time with CNTW. I don't use it for my fic, but it serves a perfectly valid function.

[seperis]

I doubt the argument primarily is about warnings; it's just a new verse, same as the first, on control. Specifically, AO3 ceding all power to authors, not readers. If you look at some of the other arguments about AO3, it's about 'allowing' certain content (underage, rape, et al), then author-control of use of warnings, now the existence of the warning, and isn't that an interesting progression.

I'm not convince anti-CNTW arguments aren't another front on the anti-rapefic/underagefic rants, but again, all of these have a basis in the inability to control authors. What makes it interesting now isn't that its widespread, because I don't think there's a higher proportion now than before; it's that they're loud because they have no power to do anything but shame authors. AO3 confirmed and codified author power over content, pairings, and warnings, and for most of them, AO3 is the Only Archive Ever. Back in the day they could bully down a mod or become a mod or take down an archive or even create their own, but it's inapplicable with AO3 for one or two and for three, unlike many of us, they don't have no idea how to build an archive of their own and for that matter, it doesn't even occur to them (talk about learned helplessness).

That's why I haven't really bothered commenting in it though I've been following along on tumblr; you don't yell, scream, threaten, and shame people to do something you want if you have the power to make them do it. The escalatingly ridiculous arguments prove one thing; they have no power at all and boy it is reallllly bothering them.

[destina]

It's amusing and yet not that this discussion goes on and on and on and on and on. Umpteen years after Sentinel fandom and TLAD, which I still think about fondly.

[arduinna]

♥♥♥TLAD!♥♥♥

Also Dief over in DS a few years earlier, where people could for the first time post m/m handholding without having to rate it as explicit because you can't have people just stumbling across two men holding hands without making sure they're adults who are really ready for such shocking stuff.

[copracat]

Oh, those old mailing list walkouts.

[copracat]

This is slightly off your topic (with which, as you know, I agree): I was browsing a fandom tag for recent stories just today and came across a story where the author made a to-do of insisting that readers note the tags because of the warnings contained therein, and therefore do not be giving the author grief because sufficient warnings exist in the tags insert exclamation marks here read at your own risk.

One of the tags was something like 'other tags to be added'.

Friend, I did not read.

Back to your topic. I decided several years ago to not use CNTW if I was writing for an exchange. In this case, the story is primarily for one person (an actual gift) and not just a story I'm putting out there. I figure if they are CNTW people they skip then or will have set don't show warnings, and if they're not, then I am being a courteous exchange participant.

[laurajv]

I don’t write for exchanges, but I can certainly understand doing something different than CNTW in that circumstance, for exactly your reason.

[laurajv]

I went and traced this one around the tumblrs last night, and it indeed seems to have been kicked up most recently by someone upset there was a kinkmeme prompt on AO3 in their fandom; they were yelling at the kinkmeme owner to keep their gross kink ideas off of AO3. (as you might expect, the owner was having none of it)

[seperis]

And that explains why the arguments didn't even manage to rise to the standard of dream-logic. As kinkfic is a member of the "rapefic/underagefic/kinkfic is evil" trifecta, (guaranteed to set off frothing rage with minimal effort or even no effort at all), it must be stopped. Unlike the first two, however, while they know kinkfic is evil, they have yet to work out a semi-coherent 'why', much less an impressively social-justice-sounding one with inflammatory keywords that could, if you squint, be vaguely relevant or at least seem so while squinting if they're appropriately italicized.

The attempt to compare CNTW to anti-ADA arguments was maybe the saddest and yet most hilarious attempt I've seen to use 'random unrelated social justice subject' in the fond hope if they say it, it'll be true because magic.

(Noticeably, that's when 'it's actually about accessibility' showed up and how they typed that with a straight face and no irony I will never know.)

[fairestcat]

Oh, tumblr.

I'm generally fond of warnings when available, but I'm even more fond of writers having boundaries, which is why I've always thought codifying "Creator Chose Not to Use Archive Warnings" as an option is one of the smartest policy decisions the AO3 ever made.

[are_youready]

It's really interesting that a lot of "anti" stuff your seeing is against CNtW. I've never seen stuff against it, but then I don't tend to participate in anti vs anti-anti shit.

I use CNtW on my work often, partially to avoid the attention of antis and those who would call me out. I feel that using a searchable tag of Stuff People Get Mad At You For Writing About is asking for trouble, and I've also seen authors called out using screenshots of their AO3 page once too often, so I prefer not to make it that easy.

The other reason I tend to use CNtW is because while I myself like reading fic with warnings, I find AO3's archive warnings uniquely unhelpful in avoiding fic I'd rather not read (not moral judgements on said fic, just stuff I don't tend to enjoy). Is this fic with the underage warning about two seventeen year olds experimenting, or an adult graphically raping a child? Is this one with a rape/non-con warning about rape equals love, or about people having Bad Decision Sex while too drunk to consent? Is the graphic depiction of violence just canon typical monster hunting, or is it 6000 words of lavishly detailed torture porn? We Just Don't Know.

It's even harder to tag my own fic. Should I tag canon-typical violence with graphic depictions of violence or not? What about telepathic violence, where no real-world-possible violence is mentioned even in allegory but one person is clearly harming another? What about a fic I worked on a few years back which describes a consensual sexual encounter, but characterization implies that if one party had not consented, the other might have raped him anyway?

These are things that I would prefer to warn for, because I like warnings. (No shade if you don't, I just do. This is partly because I prefer to read some spoilers for a story - any story, fanfic, tv, movie, book, whatever - before I go in, as I find I enjoy the piece more). But I would rather put the warnings in the author's note - both so that they are non-searchable and not visible to people simply glancing at my page, and because the author's note allows me to be clear and nuanced in explaining the thing I'm warning for.

It makes no sense to me to be against CNtW when AO3's warnings are so hamfisted and easily misused.

[laurajv]

Yeah, a certain set of antis was beating a drum at that particular time about how selfish and mean and gross it was not to use warnings.

I think people have really complex interactions with warnings in general. I mean, for example, I dislike it very much when people use the Notes field to warn, because I have warnings turned off on AO3 on purpose -- for me, warnings make the reading experience MUCH less pleasurable, so I want them to be located somewhere I can easily and consistently avoid. But as your own experience points out, that doesn't work for some people. The thing I like about AO3's system is that it's flexible enough to be used in multiple ways -- people can warn or not, turn off seeing the main warnings or not, tag extensively or not, etc. and most people can find a way to make it work for them.

Once, in a warnings debate years and years ago, I mentioned that the only thing I'd ever read that viscerally squicked me to a level I didn't know I could be squicked to wasn't something covered by any warning I'd ever seen. It *technically* kind of would fit under "major character death" but the character death wasn't the issue. It is, as you point out, hard to know whether one of the large umbrella warnings is A Thing You Hate or A Thing That Is Actually Fine, because the devil is in the details.

Tagging can be really hard, I agree. I personally tend to use minimal tags. Sometimes I use tags that add details that I think are of specific interest -- I usually tag my outsider POV fic, for instance, or explicitly bisexual or asexual characters. But again, because I'm generally looking for readers willing to come with the story on a voyage, very little of what I tag could be considered warning-adjacent.

[laurajv]

oh -- if you are interested in seeing what people were going on about, if you follow the link to my tumblr & click on the "choose not to warn" tag or the "fandom meta" tag, a lot of it comes up!